[smilin]

Are fire safe cigarettes going to be nationwide or is it a state by state choice? And i saw the house passed something to put cigarettes under the FDA, what does that mean for us smokers?

[cooljay788]

Since all of the Big Tobacco brands will be FSCs by the end of 2009, it won't matter if your state has a FSC law or not by then. You won't find cheaper cig brands, including Natives offline. Since those brands are non-FSCs no state is gonna sell em anyway.

A non-FSC state might sell Natives. Although seeing 25 bucks for a carton of Natives offline would be a dream.

[Sally]

I have to agree that most online and all regular stores will all have fire safe cigarettes by no later than Feb 2010.

However I have heard by the Native Americans that make Natives and Seneca's will not put the fire safe paper on them, but yet I have found all online stores in the state of New York are already putting fire safe paper on their Natives and Seneca's, I bought some from there so I know. So I do not think weather they are Natives or Seneca's are going to make a difference in the long run for a way around the fire safe cigarettes.

I do know however there are many states that carry Natives and Seneca's in regular retail stores, we have a few here we can buy them from for under $25.00 per carton. I know New York, some places in CA, WA, OR, TX just to name a few but I do not know if they are that cheap in those states or not.

[cooljay788]

Well, since I have bought Senecas from a CA-based online smoke shop before, the state of CA forgot to put FSC paper on those. Because CA is a FSC state too. LOL

Do those packs of Senecas in NY say "Made in Canada" on the side of the pack? Just curious. Senecas made in the USA taste a lot different, and I guess those USA Senecas were FSCs. Senecas made in Canada taste a lot more stronger than the Senecas made in the USA.

The cheapest price i ever paid for Senecas was $12.00/carton. And that's at an online smoke shop based in KY (another FSC state). No, the Senecas I bought from them had no dirt or bugs in the cartons or packs. LOL

Those Senecas tasted VERY fresh!

[Sally]

Yes there were two different kinds of Seneca's but the ones in Canada is called Seneca and the ones made here in the USA change their names to Sky Dancers because the Seneca Nation in Canada sued them for their name rights. I think personally the Sky Dancers taste nasty and the ones in Canada are ok but make me dizzy.

Right now Native and Seneca companies are in law suits to fight against the FSC situation for they both feel the whole point of their cigarettes is they have a additive or added chemicals free cigarette. It would crush the native industry if they are forced to put fire standard compliant paper on their cigarettes.

The government is trying really hard to make it a federal law instead of just a state law so that the Indian brands would have to comply.

I would hate to see it for I smoke Natives and you will never catch me smoking any major brands or any other brands that were made with all those 599 chemicals added to them that the manufactures got sued over about 10 years ago.

As far as who you may have ordered online from Kentucky Seneca’s even though KY is already a FSC state the Seneca’s he is buying from his supplier still do not have the FSC paper on them because at this time the Indians are refusing to put that stuff on their cigarettes but be careful of who you are doing business with in KY because the only guy I know that does a mail order business there is boot legging cigarettes from out of his state and it will not be long before he is shut down just like the guy in New Mexico that did not follow the rules to online tobacco products. Just a word to the wise.

[cooljay788]

Oh, the Senecas that I bought came from an online smoke shop based within KY. I didn't pick the cartons up...they were delivered to me of course.

I'd have to literally travel to KY to buy from bootleggers down there. hee hee

EDIT: I guess buying cigs online through bootleggers (mail ordering) is actually different from buying cigs at smoke shops similar to the ones posted at cigreviews. The shop I'm a customer at (the KY-based shop) is not on cigreviews's shop list.

[Eddie H]

The only difference is your definition of bootleggers.

The shop you order from and all the shops on cigreviews ARE mailorder. But being mailorder don't mean it's bootlegging.

Driving down to KY and buying a bunch of cigs and taking them back to Illinois and selling them to your friends through your network for a profit is bootlegging. Official Cig sites that drive to other states to pick up cigs and take them back to wherever they started from to sell the cigs on their sites would also be bootlegging. Keeping the cigs for yourself would be you trying to save yourself a buck or two or three (per pack).

Are you saying that the shop you order from is all bootleggers? 'Cause I know you ain't saying any of the shops on cigreviews is that.

Maybe the shop you order from IS bootleggers and that's the reason they are not on cigreviews. heh heh heh

Maybe if some non-native shop can keep getting non-FSC premium brands for a long time after non-FSCs are outlawed they will be called "BootLeggers".

[Sally]

Alright bootlegging is bootlegging and it is illegal. If you are a wholesaler in CA for example and you sell and ship cigarettes to a retailer in KY for example the wholesaler in CA is to report that sale to the state revenues department in KY that the sale was made. That is what the JENKINS ACT is all about. Also if a wholesaler from one state sells and ships cigarettes to another wholesaler in another state is also suppose to report the sale.

The guy in KY drives to SC and buys and then drives back and sells those cigarettes to people that buys off his web site in KY, that is illegal and is call bootlegging. Why do you think his cigarettes are advertised for so much cheaper than most of the online stores? Do you remember Don Delanny and Scott Snider? Shame Shame. Same thing happen to them for doing bootlegging the AFT shut them down and same with the guy in New Mexico.

More than likely that is why they are not allowed to advertise on this cigreviews web site, I know I would not buy from a bootlegger, they are whom gives the legitimate online tobacco stores a bad name.

[Eddie H]

Originally Posted by Sally More than likely that is why they are not allowed to advertise on this cigreviews web site, I know I would not buy from a bootlegger, they are whom gives the legitimate online tobacco stores a bad name.

You are so right. Some people DID give legitimate online smoke shops a bad name. But, the government over-reacted (and is still doing so) in the name of "Kids" and "House Fires".

Shops that actually were "Jenkins compliant" got shut down in 2003-2005 along with all the ones that were not.

Some shops that already took every conceivable caution to prevent minors from getting cigs was shut down also along with all the ones that were not (Non-native sites).

They weren't shut down because of an updated Jenkins Act, they were shut down through force and intimidation. Jack boot thugs that call themselves ATF kicked down doors, stole tobacco products and threatened to lock people up to get all those 300 or so Domestic webstores to close.

Getting back to the conversation about bootleggers:

I can't say for sure that not having tax stamps means a shop is a bootlegger because like, the Indian Nations don't let nobody push them around. I believe they manufacture their brands. They don't put no FSC on it IF they don't want to. They don't put no tax stamp on it either if they don't want to. I'm sure they will put FSC on it if we smokers can't get FSC chemicals removed. I believe most of them already put tax stamps on or "ink through" stamps

Most of the time cigs that don't have tax stamps on the packs just means that somebody in the distribution point is keeping a record of all the packs that go out with no stamps and "Inking through" a book of tax stamps (that comes from whatever states' Dept. of Revenue) to coincide with those unstamped packs. Then, once or twice a month, the Revenue official comes by and picks up a check for the taxes of all stamps that were "inked through" since the last visit. Most people are unaware of this and they assume that no tax stamps means it is bootlegging. If they are NOT inking the tax stamps as I just said AND sending cigs out to fulfill online sales, then that IS tax evasion

With native shops, it could be either/or because they are sovereign. They believe (and are probably right) that they don't have to follow the white man's laws so, whether its got tax stamps or not don't matter. I think most of the Native peoples in the tobacco business, if they do do tax stamps, they only do it to get along and not because they think they have to.

I very rarely get an unstamped pack from the Native shops and I been ordering online from Native American sites for almost 5 years now. Everything I got this year from the sites on CigReviews had a tax stamp on every pack (a total of 17 cartons).

One thing I started doing three years ago is I keep every pack I empty. I keep all my empty cig packs just in case someday my state sends me a letter for back cigarette taxes claiming that all the packs I bought were unstamped. They did that one time to me (state of NY and state of FL). The vast majority of every pack I have EVER smoked had a tax stamp on them. I always look for the tax stamps on packs ever since I got those tax bills. They can't try to collect nothing from you if you have all the packs for the time period in question and they all have tax stamps on them. I figure I have around 3000 empty packs now stored in trash bags. Maybe somebody will have a contest for empty cigarette packs and make the grand prize a trip to Acapulco. Yeah!

[cooljay788]

There are two smoke shops on this site where (at both shops) they make it clear they report orders. I'm sorry. But I can't see myself ever buying cigs from a shop like that. Reporting my orders defeats the purpose of buying cigs online period...which is to save money compared to paying 100 bucks for a carton in my area.

At least with a smoke shop that doesn't report orders, you never have to worry about paying back taxes on the cartons.

But of course, if that bill passes later on this year, then NONE of the smoke shops will be able to deliver cigs again, whether they're Jenkins Act-compliant or not.